On 07/01/2010 0:01, @tine02 wrote:
> On 6 jan, 23:53, "@tine02" wrote:
>> Bonjour ,
>> ARTE vient de diffuser une émission consacrée à la SGM " The war " .
>> Dans un épisode , un militaire Etazunien avoue ( de nos jours , date
>> du tournage ) que durant la contre-offensive des Ardennes un " jeune
>> officier sorti de West Point " lui a ordonné à lui et à ses cama rades
>> de fusiller 25 prisonniers Allemands .Ils ont refusé .
>> Ces prisonniers se sont rendus apres que la ferme qui leur servait de
>> point d'appui ait été bombardée .
>> Cet officier a finalement réuni un peloton et procédé à l'exec ution
>> des 25 prisonniers Allemands .
>> Ce " jeune officier " devarit avoir aujourd'hui entre 85 et 90 ans
>> s'il est toujours en vie .
>> Quelle est la démarche pour entammer un action pour "crimes de guerr e
>> " ?
>> Il y t'il un état qui s'est déclaré compétant universellement pour les
>> crimes de guerre , en principe , inprescriptibles ?
>> Les " historiens " ( eventuellement germanisants ) qui lisent ce fi l
>> ont ils plus de detail sur ce crime de guerre qui s'est déroulé du rant
>> la contre-offensive Etazunienne dans les Ardennes Belges avec le nom
>> des victimes .
>> Il suffirait de regarder le film pour avoir le nom du temoin ,
>> remonter à son unité via les National Archives et peut être mett re un
>> nom sur la crapule qui a commis ce crime de guerre et enfin verifier
>> s'il vit toujours .
> Voila ce que je viens de trouver sur Wiki
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre
Axiome de Nuremberg: Seuls les nazis commirent des crimes de guerre.
En vertu de ce principe, tu peux toujours te brosser pour traduire en
justice
durant la période considérée. On en voit toujours les séquelles d e nos
jours...
Dresde? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Katyn? Les DEF camps? Les viols
sytématiques de la part des troupes russes? Bof, des broutilles....
Aftermath and trial
On January 13, 1945, American forces recaptured the site where the
killings occurred. The cold had preserved the scene well. The bodies
were recovered on January 14 and January 15, 1945. The memorial at
Baugnez bears the names of the murdered soldiers.
The size of the massacre, which apparently is the only one perpetrated
on such a scale against American troops in Europe during World War II,
caused an uproar at the time. However, the number of victims was quite
low, compared to other German atrocities.
In addition to the effect the event had on American combatants in
Europe, it seems that news of the massacre also greatly affected the
United States. This explains why the alleged culprits were deferred to
the Dachau Trials, which were held in May and June 1946, after the war.[2 4]
In what came to be called the "Malmedy massacre trial", which concerned
all of the war crimes attributed to Kampfgruppe Peiper for the battle of
the Bulge, the highest-ranking defendant was General Sepp Dietrich,
commander of the 6th SS Panzer Army, to which Peipers unit belonged.
Joachim Peiper and his principal subordinates were defendants.[24] The
Tribunal tried more than 70 persons and pronounced 43 death sentences
(none of which was carried out) and 22 life sentences. Eight other men
were sentenced to shorter prison sentences.[24]
After the verdict, the way in which the court had functioned was
disputed, first in Germany (by former Nazi officials who had regained
some power due to anti-Communist positions with the occupation forces),
then later in the United States (by Congressmen from heavily
German-American areas of the Midwest). The case was appealed to the
Supreme Court of the United States, which made no decision. The case
then came under the scrutiny of a sub-Committee of the Senate of the
United States.[23] A young Senator from Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy, used
it as an opportunity to raise his political profile.[25] He stated that
the Court had not tried the defendants fairly.[2][26]
This drew attention to the trial and the judicial irregularities that
had occurred during the interrogations that preceded the trial. But,
before the United States Senate took an interest in this case, most of
the death sentences had been commuted, because of a revision of the
trial carried out by the U.S. Army.[24] The other life sentences were
commuted within the next few years. All the convicted war criminals were
released during the 1950s, the last one to leave prison being Peiper in
December 1956. There was a schism within the American Legion and
Veterans of Foreign Wars because World War II veterans who were members
protested McCarthy's defense of the convicted. The leadership consisting
of the earlier World War I veterans was reluctant to criticize him,
because of his anti-communist stance. Critics of the post-war trials of
Japanese military personnel have cited the release of these war
criminals as an example of the racism that characterized the difference
in treatment. Japanese military who were convicted of killing prisoners
as a matter of policy were executed per international law and custom.
The turmoil that followed the Malmedy trials and the early release of
the condemned is often used by some people as an example of biased
post-war justice applied at the discretion of the winner.[27]
A distinct lawsuit about the war crimes committed against civilians in
Stavelot was tried on July 6, 1948, in front of a Belgian military court
in Liege, Belgium. The defendants were 10 members of Kampfgruppe Peiper;
American troops had captured them on December 22, 1944, near the spot
where one of the massacres of civilians in Stavelot had occurred. One
man was discharged; the others were found guilty. Most of the convicts
were sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment; two officers were sentenced to
12 and 15 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre- Masquer le texte des messa ges précédents -
- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
On 07/01/2010 0:01, P@lp@tine02 wrote:
> On 6 jan, 23:53, "P@lp@tine02"<padawane...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Bonjour ,
>> ARTE vient de diffuser une émission consacrée à la SGM " The war " .
>> Dans un épisode , un militaire Etazunien avoue ( de nos jours , date
>> du tournage ) que durant la contre-offensive des Ardennes un " jeune
>> officier sorti de West Point " lui a ordonné à lui et à ses cama rades
>> de fusiller 25 prisonniers Allemands .Ils ont refusé .
>> Ces prisonniers se sont rendus apres que la ferme qui leur servait de
>> point d'appui ait été bombardée .
>> Cet officier a finalement réuni un peloton et procédé à l'exec ution
>> des 25 prisonniers Allemands .
>> Ce " jeune officier " devarit avoir aujourd'hui entre 85 et 90 ans
>> s'il est toujours en vie .
>> Quelle est la démarche pour entammer un action pour "crimes de guerr e
>> " ?
>> Il y t'il un état qui s'est déclaré compétant universellement pour les
>> crimes de guerre , en principe , inprescriptibles ?
>> Les " historiens " ( eventuellement germanisants ) qui lisent ce fi l
>> ont ils plus de detail sur ce crime de guerre qui s'est déroulé du rant
>> la contre-offensive Etazunienne dans les Ardennes Belges avec le nom
>> des victimes .
>> Il suffirait de regarder le film pour avoir le nom du temoin ,
>> remonter à son unité via les National Archives et peut être mett re un
>> nom sur la crapule qui a commis ce crime de guerre et enfin verifier
>> s'il vit toujours .
> Voila ce que je viens de trouver sur Wiki
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre
Axiome de Nuremberg: Seuls les nazis commirent des crimes de guerre.
En vertu de ce principe, tu peux toujours te brosser pour traduire en
justice
durant la période considérée. On en voit toujours les séquelles d e nos
jours...
Dresde? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Katyn? Les DEF camps? Les viols
sytématiques de la part des troupes russes? Bof, des broutilles....
Aftermath and trial
On January 13, 1945, American forces recaptured the site where the
killings occurred. The cold had preserved the scene well. The bodies
were recovered on January 14 and January 15, 1945. The memorial at
Baugnez bears the names of the murdered soldiers.
The size of the massacre, which apparently is the only one perpetrated
on such a scale against American troops in Europe during World War II,
caused an uproar at the time. However, the number of victims was quite
low, compared to other German atrocities.
In addition to the effect the event had on American combatants in
Europe, it seems that news of the massacre also greatly affected the
United States. This explains why the alleged culprits were deferred to
the Dachau Trials, which were held in May and June 1946, after the war.[2 4]
In what came to be called the "Malmedy massacre trial", which concerned
all of the war crimes attributed to Kampfgruppe Peiper for the battle of
the Bulge, the highest-ranking defendant was General Sepp Dietrich,
commander of the 6th SS Panzer Army, to which Peipers unit belonged.
Joachim Peiper and his principal subordinates were defendants.[24] The
Tribunal tried more than 70 persons and pronounced 43 death sentences
(none of which was carried out) and 22 life sentences. Eight other men
were sentenced to shorter prison sentences.[24]
After the verdict, the way in which the court had functioned was
disputed, first in Germany (by former Nazi officials who had regained
some power due to anti-Communist positions with the occupation forces),
then later in the United States (by Congressmen from heavily
German-American areas of the Midwest). The case was appealed to the
Supreme Court of the United States, which made no decision. The case
then came under the scrutiny of a sub-Committee of the Senate of the
United States.[23] A young Senator from Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy, used
it as an opportunity to raise his political profile.[25] He stated that
the Court had not tried the defendants fairly.[2][26]
This drew attention to the trial and the judicial irregularities that
had occurred during the interrogations that preceded the trial. But,
before the United States Senate took an interest in this case, most of
the death sentences had been commuted, because of a revision of the
trial carried out by the U.S. Army.[24] The other life sentences were
commuted within the next few years. All the convicted war criminals were
released during the 1950s, the last one to leave prison being Peiper in
December 1956. There was a schism within the American Legion and
Veterans of Foreign Wars because World War II veterans who were members
protested McCarthy's defense of the convicted. The leadership consisting
of the earlier World War I veterans was reluctant to criticize him,
because of his anti-communist stance. Critics of the post-war trials of
Japanese military personnel have cited the release of these war
criminals as an example of the racism that characterized the difference
in treatment. Japanese military who were convicted of killing prisoners
as a matter of policy were executed per international law and custom.
The turmoil that followed the Malmedy trials and the early release of
the condemned is often used by some people as an example of biased
post-war justice applied at the discretion of the winner.[27]
A distinct lawsuit about the war crimes committed against civilians in
Stavelot was tried on July 6, 1948, in front of a Belgian military court
in Liege, Belgium. The defendants were 10 members of Kampfgruppe Peiper;
American troops had captured them on December 22, 1944, near the spot
where one of the massacres of civilians in Stavelot had occurred. One
man was discharged; the others were found guilty. Most of the convicts
were sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment; two officers were sentenced to
12 and 15 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre- Masquer le texte des messa ges précédents -
- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
On 07/01/2010 0:01, @tine02 wrote:
> On 6 jan, 23:53, "@tine02" wrote:
>> Bonjour ,
>> ARTE vient de diffuser une émission consacrée à la SGM " The war " .
>> Dans un épisode , un militaire Etazunien avoue ( de nos jours , date
>> du tournage ) que durant la contre-offensive des Ardennes un " jeune
>> officier sorti de West Point " lui a ordonné à lui et à ses cama rades
>> de fusiller 25 prisonniers Allemands .Ils ont refusé .
>> Ces prisonniers se sont rendus apres que la ferme qui leur servait de
>> point d'appui ait été bombardée .
>> Cet officier a finalement réuni un peloton et procédé à l'exec ution
>> des 25 prisonniers Allemands .
>> Ce " jeune officier " devarit avoir aujourd'hui entre 85 et 90 ans
>> s'il est toujours en vie .
>> Quelle est la démarche pour entammer un action pour "crimes de guerr e
>> " ?
>> Il y t'il un état qui s'est déclaré compétant universellement pour les
>> crimes de guerre , en principe , inprescriptibles ?
>> Les " historiens " ( eventuellement germanisants ) qui lisent ce fi l
>> ont ils plus de detail sur ce crime de guerre qui s'est déroulé du rant
>> la contre-offensive Etazunienne dans les Ardennes Belges avec le nom
>> des victimes .
>> Il suffirait de regarder le film pour avoir le nom du temoin ,
>> remonter à son unité via les National Archives et peut être mett re un
>> nom sur la crapule qui a commis ce crime de guerre et enfin verifier
>> s'il vit toujours .
> Voila ce que je viens de trouver sur Wiki
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre
Axiome de Nuremberg: Seuls les nazis commirent des crimes de guerre.
En vertu de ce principe, tu peux toujours te brosser pour traduire en
justice
durant la période considérée. On en voit toujours les séquelles d e nos
jours...
Dresde? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Katyn? Les DEF camps? Les viols
sytématiques de la part des troupes russes? Bof, des broutilles....
Aftermath and trial
On January 13, 1945, American forces recaptured the site where the
killings occurred. The cold had preserved the scene well. The bodies
were recovered on January 14 and January 15, 1945. The memorial at
Baugnez bears the names of the murdered soldiers.
The size of the massacre, which apparently is the only one perpetrated
on such a scale against American troops in Europe during World War II,
caused an uproar at the time. However, the number of victims was quite
low, compared to other German atrocities.
In addition to the effect the event had on American combatants in
Europe, it seems that news of the massacre also greatly affected the
United States. This explains why the alleged culprits were deferred to
the Dachau Trials, which were held in May and June 1946, after the war.[2 4]
In what came to be called the "Malmedy massacre trial", which concerned
all of the war crimes attributed to Kampfgruppe Peiper for the battle of
the Bulge, the highest-ranking defendant was General Sepp Dietrich,
commander of the 6th SS Panzer Army, to which Peipers unit belonged.
Joachim Peiper and his principal subordinates were defendants.[24] The
Tribunal tried more than 70 persons and pronounced 43 death sentences
(none of which was carried out) and 22 life sentences. Eight other men
were sentenced to shorter prison sentences.[24]
After the verdict, the way in which the court had functioned was
disputed, first in Germany (by former Nazi officials who had regained
some power due to anti-Communist positions with the occupation forces),
then later in the United States (by Congressmen from heavily
German-American areas of the Midwest). The case was appealed to the
Supreme Court of the United States, which made no decision. The case
then came under the scrutiny of a sub-Committee of the Senate of the
United States.[23] A young Senator from Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy, used
it as an opportunity to raise his political profile.[25] He stated that
the Court had not tried the defendants fairly.[2][26]
This drew attention to the trial and the judicial irregularities that
had occurred during the interrogations that preceded the trial. But,
before the United States Senate took an interest in this case, most of
the death sentences had been commuted, because of a revision of the
trial carried out by the U.S. Army.[24] The other life sentences were
commuted within the next few years. All the convicted war criminals were
released during the 1950s, the last one to leave prison being Peiper in
December 1956. There was a schism within the American Legion and
Veterans of Foreign Wars because World War II veterans who were members
protested McCarthy's defense of the convicted. The leadership consisting
of the earlier World War I veterans was reluctant to criticize him,
because of his anti-communist stance. Critics of the post-war trials of
Japanese military personnel have cited the release of these war
criminals as an example of the racism that characterized the difference
in treatment. Japanese military who were convicted of killing prisoners
as a matter of policy were executed per international law and custom.
The turmoil that followed the Malmedy trials and the early release of
the condemned is often used by some people as an example of biased
post-war justice applied at the discretion of the winner.[27]
A distinct lawsuit about the war crimes committed against civilians in
Stavelot was tried on July 6, 1948, in front of a Belgian military court
in Liege, Belgium. The defendants were 10 members of Kampfgruppe Peiper;
American troops had captured them on December 22, 1944, near the spot
where one of the massacres of civilians in Stavelot had occurred. One
man was discharged; the others were found guilty. Most of the convicts
were sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment; two officers were sentenced to
12 and 15 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre- Masquer le texte des messa ges précédents -
- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Zulu a écrit :
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:
Zulu a écrit :
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Le 2010-01-11 05:39, Zulu a écrit :On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce
tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Ils n'ont pas non plus condamné les Allemands pour ce fait...
Le 2010-01-11 05:39, Zulu a écrit :
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:
Zulu a écrit :
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce
tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Ils n'ont pas non plus condamné les Allemands pour ce fait...
Le 2010-01-11 05:39, Zulu a écrit :On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce
tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Ils n'ont pas non plus condamné les Allemands pour ce fait...
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Cela prouve bien leur total manque d'indépendance vis à vis de leurs
commanditaires: les pays vainqueurs.
Comme résultat remarquable, nous avons un acte d'accusation qui
incrimine les nazis et un jugement final qui élude cette charge.
En conclusion, après ce procès on ne sait toujours pas qui sont les
coupables, ce qui permit aux russes de nous bourrer le mou sur cette
affaire jusqu'à ce que Gorbachev admette finalement la responsabilité
soviétique.
Ces juges ont aussi admis, sur la foi de preuves russes et, sans aucune
recherche sur les faits (pas de nécessité de vérification des "preuves"
en accord avec les statuts du tribunal), que les nazis ont utilisé des
"chambres à vapeur" pour "exterminer des centaines de milliers de juifs"
à Treblinka * et et des "planchers électriques" à Belzec. Ils ont aussi
admis, toujours sans aucun examen des prétendus "armes du crime" et sur
la foi des "confessions" des nazis Hoess et Paul Waldmann**, le "gazage"
de 2.5 millions de juifs à Auschwitz et de 840 000 prisonniers russes à
Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen.
Bravo les juges!
Le film Katyn d'Andrzej Wajda montre bien ce que coutait aux polonais de
l'après-guerre leur attitude "négationniste" à propos de ce crime. Leur
négationnisme consistant, bien sûr, à nier la "version officielle" de la
responsabilité nazie de ce crime. Les russes avaient leur "loi Gayssot"
ad hoc pour exercer une répression efficace contre ces récalcitrants à
la "vérité historique" en vigueur.
[*] <IMT Nuremberg>
CHAPTER XII - THE PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS
...
4.THE PROGRAM FOR THE COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF JEWRY
...
The official Polish Government Commissioner Report on the Investigation of
German crimes in Poland describes the concentration camp at Treblinka in
these terms:
"In March 1942, the Germans began to erect another camp, Treblinka B, in
the
neighborhood of Treblinka A, intended to become a place of torment for
Jews.
"The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans
aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland
which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the
Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the
erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general
massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the
erection of the real death building was finished, which contains ten
death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942
* * *." (3311-PS)
The report of the commission describes graphically the procedure for
extermination within the camp:
"The average number of Jews dealt with at the camp in summer 1942 was
about two railway transports daily, but there were days of much higher
efficiency. From autumn 1942 this number was falling.
"After unloading in the siding all victims were assembled in one place
where men were separated from women and children. In the first days of
the existence of the camp the victims were made to believe that after a
short stay in the camp, necessary for bathing and disinfection, they
would be sent farther east, for work. Explanations of this sort were
given by SS men who assisted at the unloading of the transports and
further explanations could be read in notices stuck up on the walls of
the barracks. But later, when more transports had to be dealt with, the
Germans dropped all pretenses and only tried to accelerate the procedure.
"All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
afterwards, whereupon all victims. women and children first, were driven
into
the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move quickly were
driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking, often by Sauer
himself. Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. The Jewish menial
workers had to remove the bodies from the platform and to bury them in
mass graves. By and by, as new transports arrived, the cemetery grew,
extending in eastern direction.
"From reports received, it may be assumed that several hundred thousands
of Jews have been exterminated in Treblinka." (3311-PS)
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol1/chap_12.htm
[**] <IMT Nuremberg>
THE PRESIDENT: Were the other letters that you referred to also
addressed to SS units?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, they were also addressed to
the SS units. The first letter, addressed to the administration of the
Auschwitz Camp was from the firm Topf and Sons.
I shall now present to the Tribunal evidence of the fact that besides
the stationary crematoria, there existed also movable crematoria. The
Tribunal already knows about the movable gas chambers. These were
"murder vans." There were also created transportable crematoria. An SS
member, Paul Waldmann, testifies to their existence.
He was one of the participants in the crime perpetrated by the German
fascists when 840,000 Russian prisoners of war in Sachsenhausen were
annihilated at one time. The Exhibit Number USSR-52 (Document Number
USSR-52) on Auschwitz has already been presented to the Court. I quote
that particular extract from the testimony of an SS member, Waldmann,
which mentions the mass execution in Sachsenhausen:
"The war prisoners murdered in this way were cremated in four movable
crematoria, which were transported on car trailers."
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:
Zulu a écrit :
Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Cela prouve bien leur total manque d'indépendance vis à vis de leurs
commanditaires: les pays vainqueurs.
Comme résultat remarquable, nous avons un acte d'accusation qui
incrimine les nazis et un jugement final qui élude cette charge.
En conclusion, après ce procès on ne sait toujours pas qui sont les
coupables, ce qui permit aux russes de nous bourrer le mou sur cette
affaire jusqu'à ce que Gorbachev admette finalement la responsabilité
soviétique.
Ces juges ont aussi admis, sur la foi de preuves russes et, sans aucune
recherche sur les faits (pas de nécessité de vérification des "preuves"
en accord avec les statuts du tribunal), que les nazis ont utilisé des
"chambres à vapeur" pour "exterminer des centaines de milliers de juifs"
à Treblinka * et et des "planchers électriques" à Belzec. Ils ont aussi
admis, toujours sans aucun examen des prétendus "armes du crime" et sur
la foi des "confessions" des nazis Hoess et Paul Waldmann**, le "gazage"
de 2.5 millions de juifs à Auschwitz et de 840 000 prisonniers russes à
Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen.
Bravo les juges!
Le film Katyn d'Andrzej Wajda montre bien ce que coutait aux polonais de
l'après-guerre leur attitude "négationniste" à propos de ce crime. Leur
négationnisme consistant, bien sûr, à nier la "version officielle" de la
responsabilité nazie de ce crime. Les russes avaient leur "loi Gayssot"
ad hoc pour exercer une répression efficace contre ces récalcitrants à
la "vérité historique" en vigueur.
[*] <IMT Nuremberg>
CHAPTER XII - THE PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS
...
4.THE PROGRAM FOR THE COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF JEWRY
...
The official Polish Government Commissioner Report on the Investigation of
German crimes in Poland describes the concentration camp at Treblinka in
these terms:
"In March 1942, the Germans began to erect another camp, Treblinka B, in
the
neighborhood of Treblinka A, intended to become a place of torment for
Jews.
"The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans
aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland
which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the
Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the
erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general
massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the
erection of the real death building was finished, which contains ten
death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942
* * *." (3311-PS)
The report of the commission describes graphically the procedure for
extermination within the camp:
"The average number of Jews dealt with at the camp in summer 1942 was
about two railway transports daily, but there were days of much higher
efficiency. From autumn 1942 this number was falling.
"After unloading in the siding all victims were assembled in one place
where men were separated from women and children. In the first days of
the existence of the camp the victims were made to believe that after a
short stay in the camp, necessary for bathing and disinfection, they
would be sent farther east, for work. Explanations of this sort were
given by SS men who assisted at the unloading of the transports and
further explanations could be read in notices stuck up on the walls of
the barracks. But later, when more transports had to be dealt with, the
Germans dropped all pretenses and only tried to accelerate the procedure.
"All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
afterwards, whereupon all victims. women and children first, were driven
into
the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move quickly were
driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking, often by Sauer
himself. Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. The Jewish menial
workers had to remove the bodies from the platform and to bury them in
mass graves. By and by, as new transports arrived, the cemetery grew,
extending in eastern direction.
"From reports received, it may be assumed that several hundred thousands
of Jews have been exterminated in Treblinka." (3311-PS)
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol1/chap_12.htm
[**] <IMT Nuremberg>
THE PRESIDENT: Were the other letters that you referred to also
addressed to SS units?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, they were also addressed to
the SS units. The first letter, addressed to the administration of the
Auschwitz Camp was from the firm Topf and Sons.
I shall now present to the Tribunal evidence of the fact that besides
the stationary crematoria, there existed also movable crematoria. The
Tribunal already knows about the movable gas chambers. These were
"murder vans." There were also created transportable crematoria. An SS
member, Paul Waldmann, testifies to their existence.
He was one of the participants in the crime perpetrated by the German
fascists when 840,000 Russian prisoners of war in Sachsenhausen were
annihilated at one time. The Exhibit Number USSR-52 (Document Number
USSR-52) on Auschwitz has already been presented to the Court. I quote
that particular extract from the testimony of an SS member, Waldmann,
which mentions the mass execution in Sachsenhausen:
"The war prisoners murdered in this way were cremated in four movable
crematoria, which were transported on car trailers."
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp
On 08/01/2010 22:58, Diberville wrote:Zulu a écrit :Je n'ai jamais entendu dire que les juges qui ont officié à ce tribunal
aient été des criminels de guerre
Mais bon...
Allons, pas de mauvaise foi SVP.
C'est vous qui êtes de mauvaise foi : vous auriez préféré qu'on les
fusille tous directement et en bloc, comme eux-mêmes le faisaient ?
Et comme les troupes US ou soviétiques l'ont fait sans trop de gêne?
Allons donc, à Nuremberg ces juges, qui était "irréprochables" selon
vous, n'ont pas osé statué pour innocenter les nazis du crime de guerre
de Katyn alors qu'ils savaient pertinemment que les russes étaient les
coupables.
Cela prouve bien leur total manque d'indépendance vis à vis de leurs
commanditaires: les pays vainqueurs.
Comme résultat remarquable, nous avons un acte d'accusation qui
incrimine les nazis et un jugement final qui élude cette charge.
En conclusion, après ce procès on ne sait toujours pas qui sont les
coupables, ce qui permit aux russes de nous bourrer le mou sur cette
affaire jusqu'à ce que Gorbachev admette finalement la responsabilité
soviétique.
Ces juges ont aussi admis, sur la foi de preuves russes et, sans aucune
recherche sur les faits (pas de nécessité de vérification des "preuves"
en accord avec les statuts du tribunal), que les nazis ont utilisé des
"chambres à vapeur" pour "exterminer des centaines de milliers de juifs"
à Treblinka * et et des "planchers électriques" à Belzec. Ils ont aussi
admis, toujours sans aucun examen des prétendus "armes du crime" et sur
la foi des "confessions" des nazis Hoess et Paul Waldmann**, le "gazage"
de 2.5 millions de juifs à Auschwitz et de 840 000 prisonniers russes à
Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen.
Bravo les juges!
Le film Katyn d'Andrzej Wajda montre bien ce que coutait aux polonais de
l'après-guerre leur attitude "négationniste" à propos de ce crime. Leur
négationnisme consistant, bien sûr, à nier la "version officielle" de la
responsabilité nazie de ce crime. Les russes avaient leur "loi Gayssot"
ad hoc pour exercer une répression efficace contre ces récalcitrants à
la "vérité historique" en vigueur.
[*] <IMT Nuremberg>
CHAPTER XII - THE PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS
...
4.THE PROGRAM FOR THE COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF JEWRY
...
The official Polish Government Commissioner Report on the Investigation of
German crimes in Poland describes the concentration camp at Treblinka in
these terms:
"In March 1942, the Germans began to erect another camp, Treblinka B, in
the
neighborhood of Treblinka A, intended to become a place of torment for
Jews.
"The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans
aiming at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland
which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the
Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942, the
erection of the first three chambers was finished in which these general
massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the
erection of the real death building was finished, which contains ten
death chambers. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942
* * *." (3311-PS)
The report of the commission describes graphically the procedure for
extermination within the camp:
"The average number of Jews dealt with at the camp in summer 1942 was
about two railway transports daily, but there were days of much higher
efficiency. From autumn 1942 this number was falling.
"After unloading in the siding all victims were assembled in one place
where men were separated from women and children. In the first days of
the existence of the camp the victims were made to believe that after a
short stay in the camp, necessary for bathing and disinfection, they
would be sent farther east, for work. Explanations of this sort were
given by SS men who assisted at the unloading of the transports and
further explanations could be read in notices stuck up on the walls of
the barracks. But later, when more transports had to be dealt with, the
Germans dropped all pretenses and only tried to accelerate the procedure.
"All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected
afterwards, whereupon all victims. women and children first, were driven
into
the death chambers. Those too slow or too weak to move quickly were
driven on by rifle butts, by whipping and kicking, often by Sauer
himself. Many slipped and fell, the next victims pressed forward and
stumbled over them. Small children were simply thrown inside. After
being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and
steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. The Jewish menial
workers had to remove the bodies from the platform and to bury them in
mass graves. By and by, as new transports arrived, the cemetery grew,
extending in eastern direction.
"From reports received, it may be assumed that several hundred thousands
of Jews have been exterminated in Treblinka." (3311-PS)
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol1/chap_12.htm
[**] <IMT Nuremberg>
THE PRESIDENT: Were the other letters that you referred to also
addressed to SS units?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, they were also addressed to
the SS units. The first letter, addressed to the administration of the
Auschwitz Camp was from the firm Topf and Sons.
I shall now present to the Tribunal evidence of the fact that besides
the stationary crematoria, there existed also movable crematoria. The
Tribunal already knows about the movable gas chambers. These were
"murder vans." There were also created transportable crematoria. An SS
member, Paul Waldmann, testifies to their existence.
He was one of the participants in the crime perpetrated by the German
fascists when 840,000 Russian prisoners of war in Sachsenhausen were
annihilated at one time. The Exhibit Number USSR-52 (Document Number
USSR-52) on Auschwitz has already been presented to the Court. I quote
that particular extract from the testimony of an SS member, Waldmann,
which mentions the mass execution in Sachsenhausen:
"The war prisoners murdered in this way were cremated in four movable
crematoria, which were transported on car trailers."
</IMT Nuremberg>
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp