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Plus jamais de JPEG

102 réponses
Avatar
benoit
Bonjour,


Je viens de planter une série de photos, mais alors planter. Tout ça
parce que j'avais oublié de revenir en Raw. Et le JPEG, même en haute
définition, c'est mauvais dès lors qu'on a de large aplats de couleur.
Là c'était du gris puisqu'il y avait une bruine comme il faut
aujourd'hui en Bretagne.

Vous voulez voir ce qu'est un ciel gris revu et corrigé par jpeg ?

Déjà des couleurs qui apparaîssent, un vrai arc-en-ciel : du rouge/rose
n'importe où.
<https://www.cjoint.com/doc/18_04/HDjryvoW7RQ_Capture-d'écran-2018-04-09-à-19.22.32.JPG>

Et maintenant le bruit, à partir d'un dégradé gris dû aux nuages dans le
ciel, on obtient ça :

<https://www.cjoint.com/doc/18_04/HDjrESY4jqQ_Capture-d'écran-2018-04-09-à-19.29.13.JPG>

On a des aplats, des dégradés de pixels, des tâches vertes, des roses,
des bleues. Bref on a tout sauf ce qu'on a photographié.

Pour ceux qui vont râler qu'on ne fait jamais d'agradissements
permettants de voir ces défauts :

<https://www.cjoint.com/doc/18_04/HDjrImGP1kQ_Capture-d'écran-2018-04-09-à-19.33.31.JPG>
Ou, côté arcs-en ciel pour un jour sans soleil :
https://www.cjoint.com/doc/18_04/HDjrNnH4orQ_Capture-d'écran-2018-04-09-à-19.38.47.JPG

Bref, le jpeg, je le jette, je fais du RAW. Point barre ! _erde !


Pour info, Sony A7 II, ISO 800. 1/750e f16 sur un 35-70 pour le second.

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10 réponses

Avatar
benoit
Stephane Legras-Decussy wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 15:06, pehache a écrit :
Ce n'est pas le passage en jpg qui fait ça, mais la réduction de 12/14/16
bits (suivant les RAW) par canal RGB à 8 bits par canal RGB. Un tiff 8
bits pourra aussi faire apparaitre de la postérisation.

oui et même en envoyant un tiff16 à l'imprimante, elle va le faire elle
même cette réduction de bit

Je sais, je sais. :-(
J'ai envoyé un photo de nuit avec éclairage au Sodium (une seule
fréquence donc) et un peu de clair de lune malgré la brume. Résultat à
l'impression : un lampadaire donnait un joli cercle jaune avec des
« bagues » de jaunes de plus en plus foncées. Un tas de boue.
L'entreprise qui fait mes tirages m'a demandée de passer en CMYK puis
revenir en RVB : plus de soucis (avec leur profil d'imprimante). Les
algos vers le cmyk ont fait des corrections ponctuelles pour que cela
soit imprimable en CMYK et le retour en rvb idem.
Les couleurs ne sont pas 100% là, mais la photo si !
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Avatar
benoit
pehache wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 à 14:19, Benoit a écrit :
Stephane Legras-Decussy wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 11:13, Benoit a écrit :
> Absolument, il ouvre le fichier de façon assez brutale : il ne touche
à
> rien.
il utilise une T° de couleur... on ne peut pas developer un raw sans
fixer une T° de couleur.

Quand j'ouvre dans LR il met tout au centre, température neutre. C'est
un choix de sa part.
GraphicConverter, lui, prend les pixels tels qu'ils sont, avec un double
capteur vert, un rouge et un bleu.

Il fait quand même une tambouille, même si elle est basique. Les pixels
n'existent pas en tant que tels sur un capteur à matrice de Bayer, donc GC
doit bien faire un choix pour reconstituer des pixels.

Juste
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Avatar
benoit
Benoit wrote:
Stephane Legras-Decussy wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 15:06, pehache a écrit :
> Ce n'est pas le passage en jpg qui fait ça, mais la réduction de 12/14/16
> bits (suivant les RAW) par canal RGB à 8 bits par canal RGB. Un tiff 8
> bits pourra aussi faire apparaitre de la postérisation.
oui et même en envoyant un tiff16 à l'imprimante, elle va le faire elle
même cette réduction de bit

Je sais, je sais. :-(
J'ai envoyé un photo de nuit avec éclairage au Sodium (une seule
fréquence donc) et un peu de clair de lune malgré la brume. Résultat à
l'impression : un lampadaire donnait un joli cercle jaune avec des
« bagues » de jaunes de plus en plus foncées. Un tas de boue.
L'entreprise qui fait mes tirages m'a demandée de passer en CMYK puis
revenir en RVB : plus de soucis (avec leur profil d'imprimante). Les
algos vers le cmyk ont fait des corrections ponctuelles pour que cela
soit imprimable en CMYK et le retour en rvb idem.
Les couleurs ne sont pas 100% là, mais la photo si !

Je viens de récupérer aujourd'hui des images raw et jpeg tout auto.
L'appareil fait la mise au point ce sur ce je souhaite (j'espère avec le
flou qu'il a réussi à obtenir). Le résultat est que si je fais avec
PSHOP un flou total (base 2000 pixels) j'ai 82,86, 92 au milieu. Bref,
le capteur dans l'environnement que je lui ai demandé (auto/moyenne
partout) me donne un gris neutre de presque 33% (un peu plus sombre).
Cela veut dire, pour ce genre de photos, je dois prendre une image
debase avec ma palette et un gris à 20% et continuer là-dessus. Non ?
De toute façon le temps est proprice actuellement alors je travaille le
sujet ;)
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pehache
Le 12/04/2018 à 15:50, Stephane Legras-Decussy a écrit :
Le 12/04/2018 14:42, Benoit a écrit :
Ce que j'entends par là c'est qu'il n'y a aucune correction de
« température » j'ai tant de bleu, tant de vert, tant de rouge et bien
j'affiche ce que j'ai.

le strict minimum faisable c'est recopier dans un tiff16 les valeurs
electriques des photosites.
ça ne donne rien de regardable car chaque pixel aura 2 composantes sur
les 3, non renseignée.
la méthode la plus basique pour renseigner les composantes manquantes,
c'est pour chaque pixel, recopier la valeur de son 8-voisinage.
exemple :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9matri%C3%A7age#/media/File:Algorithme_de_d%C3%A9matricage.svg
il manque le coin haut gauche de l'image rouge... on va stupidement
recopier la valeur du voisin de droite.
finalement, tu obtiens un tiff16 sans trou et sans aucun traitement.

C'est peut-être ce que fait GC.
--
"...sois ouvert aux idées des autres pour peu qu'elles aillent dans le
même sens que les tiennes.", ST sur fr.bio.medecine
Avatar
pehache
Le 11/04/2018 à 22:06, efji a écrit :
Le 11/04/2018 à 21:37, GhostRaider a écrit :
Le 11/04/2018 à 21:26, Benoit a écrit :
Je dirais plutôt que le RAW , n'étant pas encore une image, la vision
qu'on en a est trompeuse, les couleurs sont fausses.

Ce sont celles qui ont été captées. Celles qu'i y avait l'origine.

Tu es sûr ? Elles sont très ternes. Est-ce notre cerveau qui les
ravive à ce point ?

Je pense que le monsieur n'a pas bien compris ce qu'était un fichier
raw, et il croit que quand il l'ouvre avec un logiciel lambda il a
l'image brute qui est tapie dans le raw,

Ben, c'est presque ça.
et se dit donc c'est la
meilleure.

Il n'a pas dit ça.
En général il ne faut pas essayer de contrarier ce genre
d'individu. Donc dis-lui : "oui, c'est très bien, un peu sombre et un
peu vert, mais c'est normal, tu débutes. C'est un bon début quand même.
Continue. Le raw c'est vraiment ce qu'il te faut pour devenir un bon
photographe."

--
"...sois ouvert aux idées des autres pour peu qu'elles aillent dans le
même sens que les tiennes.", ST sur fr.bio.medecine
Avatar
pehache
Le 11/04/2018 à 21:37, GhostRaider a écrit :
Aprés
tu va avoir des corrections suivant l'éclairage (néon, ampoules de base,
flash, soleil...). Là c'est la machine qui bouffe ton image, qui utilise
un algorythme basé sur des millions d'images de M et Mme Kikonque. Qui
va la ramener à une norme. Un truc qui te safisfait, te rends heureux,
tu as fait pareil que les autres. Ou, plus précisément, tu n'a rien
foutu sauf appuyer sur un bouton. Comme avec une téléphone.

J'ai choisi l'endroit, le sujet, après, comme tu le dis, c'est de la
tambouille.
Je suis un artiste, pas un marmiton.

Euh... A partir d'un même sujet, d'un même cadrage, du même instant, il
y a 36000 rendus possibles.
--
"...sois ouvert aux idées des autres pour peu qu'elles aillent dans le
même sens que les tiennes.", ST sur fr.bio.medecine
Avatar
benoit
Stephane Legras-Decussy wrote:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9matri%C3%A7age#/media/File:Algorithme
_de_d%C3%A9matricage.svg

Excellent article. Merci
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Avatar
benoit
pehache wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 à 15:50, Stephane Legras-Decussy a écrit :
Le 12/04/2018 14:42, Benoit a écrit :
Ce que j'entends par là c'est qu'il n'y a aucune correction de
« température » j'ai tant de bleu, tant de vert, tant de rouge et bien
j'affiche ce que j'ai.

le strict minimum faisable c'est recopier dans un tiff16 les valeurs
electriques des photosites.
ça ne donne rien de regardable car chaque pixel aura 2 composantes sur
les 3, non renseignée.
la méthode la plus basique pour renseigner les composantes manquantes,
c'est pour chaque pixel, recopier la valeur de son 8-voisinage.
exemple :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9matri%C3%A7age#/media/File:Algorith
me_de_d%C3%A9matricage.svg
il manque le coin haut gauche de l'image rouge... on va stupidement
recopier la valeur du voisin de droite.
finalement, tu obtiens un tiff16 sans trou et sans aucun traitement.

C'est peut-être ce que fait GC.

Déjà, je jette un ½il dans la doc (300 pages) et j'ai la liste des
formats qu'il sait lire et écrire dans ma version 8, la 10 est
aujourd'hui dispo ce qui doit être une bonne explication du résultat
obtenu. En tout cas voilà ce que sais lire et écrire un logiciel dédié à
l'origine (1992) dans la conversion de format d'image :
Format Import Export Comment
--- .D OK - 320x200 pixel for 1-bit
--- 8BIM OK - Old Photoshop 2.0 format Supports 1, 8 and 24-bit
per pixel
--- AAI OK -
--- Acorn Sprite OK - Contains sprites from Acorn computers
--- AFP OK - Variation of the TIFF format for 1-bit graphics
--- ALIAS OK - Alias Pix FormatSupports 256 grayscale or 24-bit
--- AMBER ARR OK - Used by microscopes Supports 256 grayscale
--- AMC OK -
--- Analyze OK - Format from medical technology that is made up
of two files: .hdr contains the header and .img contains the image data.
--- ANI OK - NeoChrome program animations
--- animated windows cursor (ANI) OK -
--- ANPA OK - Format with IPTC information
--- Apple File Icon - OK These files only contain the file icon.
By pressing Command-I in the operating system, you can click and copy it
in the dialog that opens before setting it for another file with
Command-V.
--- Apple Preferred OK - Apple Iigs graphic format
--- ART OK - First Publisher program format Supports 1-bit per
pixel
--- ARW OK -
--- ASCII OK OK Allows you to import and export graphics that
contain only ASCII characters
--- b3d OK - 3D format
--- Bio OK - Bio-Formats of medical devices and microscopes
(Glencoe SDK)
--- BioRad OK - BioRad file format, supports 256 grayscale
--- BLD OK OK Mega Paint format
--- BLP OK - Format of games like World of Warcraft ©. If you
need to mirror vertically after opening you can select Mirror vertically
in Preferences / Open / Image Formats / BLP.
--- BMP OK OK Standard Windows format, supports1, 4, 8, 15 and
24-bit per pixel
--- BSB OK - Format for maps
--- BSP OK -
--- BUF OK - Supports 32-bit
--- BUM OK OK Variation of the BMP or PICT format
--- Byte-Array Header File (.H) - OK Image is converted to C
source code, e.g. for games console developers
--- CALS OK - CCITT 4 compressed black and white graphics
--- CAM OK - Casio QV-10/100 format, a variation of the JPEG
format
--- CEL OK OK CEL format
--- CGM OK - Internationally standardized file format for
exchanging vector and bitmap graphics
--- Chyron OK OK The export option only covers the basic elements.
--- cicn - OK Icons
--- CINEON OK -
--- CISCOIpPhoneI mages OK OK
--- CLP OK - Windows clipboard format
--- cpbitmap OK - Format from iOS devices for the start screen and
background picture
--- cri OK -
--- CRW OK - Canon cameras raw format
--- csource OK OK Graphics as C source code
--- CT OK - Scitex color graphics
--- CUR OK OK Cursor format
--- CVG OK - Calamus vector format
--- CWK OK - Apple Works document format. All images contained
are imported.
--- DCS OK - .C, .M, .Y, .K documents are combined in a complete
CMYK image
--- DCX OK - Contains several PCX files
--- DDS OK OK Format of some graphic cards
--- DeltaVision OK -
--- DESR VFF OK -
--- DICOM OK - Graphic format used in medical technology
--- Direct icns OK OK
--- Discus YUV OK OK Format from television production
--- DJ1000 OK - Camera format
--- DL OK - Animation format with 320x200 pixels for 8-bit Normally
contains x-rated elements
--- dm2 / dm3 OK - Gatan format from digital microscopes
--- DNG OK - Digital Negative
--- Doodle OK -
--- DPX OK -
--- Dr. Halo OK - Dr. Halo program format with 256 colors
--- DrawIt PDB OK - DrawIt (Palm OS)
--- Duotone PSD OK - Import as grayscale
--- ECW OK OK Only in Carbon Version of GraphicConverter
--- Electronic Image OK OK Electric Image Format, can contain
animations
--- EPSF OK(*) OK Encapsulated Postscript Format. (*)
GraphicConverter requires a plug-in to open all EPSF files other than
Photoshop EPS files.
--- ESM OK - ESM format
--- Facesaver OK -
--- Favicon ICO OK OK Format for pictures with 16x16 pixels that
are displayed in the address bar in front of the URL. Windows ICONS is
used as the file format. Adapt and insert the following HTML code in
your Web site and copy the favicon.ico image to your server.
--- FAX OK - CCITT 3 coded fax file
--- FaxSTF OK - FaxSTF program format
--- fep OK -
--- fig OK - With installed xfig fink package on X
--- First Publisher art OK -
--- FITS OK OK Flexible Image Transport System Format
--- FLH/FLI/FLC OK - Animation from the Autodesk Animator
programFLI supports 8-bit for 320 x 200 pixels FLC supports 8-bit for
640 x 480 pixels FLH supports High Color
--- FPX OK(*) OK FlashPix file format. (*) QuickTime 4 or higher
is required for opening these files.
--- Freehand 10 preview OK - The browser can display a preview of
a Freehand file. This preview can be opened as a picture, but not as a
Freehand file.
--- FUJI OK -
--- GATAN OK - Microscope format Supports 256 grayscale
--- GEM OK - Vector graphics (GEM metafile) created by the
GEMDraw program
--- GFX OK - Xgrabber program format
--- GIF OK OK Supports 1 to 8-bit per pixel, This format was
introduced by CompuServe Inc
--- GRP OK - Uses 1 or 4-bit per pixel
--- HAM OK - Interchange File Format (IFF)
--- HCP OK - Windows screenshot format
--- HD Photo (wdp) OK - GraphicConverter can only open this
Microsoft format in the UB version.
--- HP-GL/2 OK OK This vector graphic format is usually used by
plotters
--- HGT OK -
--- HMR OK - Variation of the TIFF format
--- HTC splashscreens OK OK Format of HTC Smartphones (*.rgb565)
--- IBL OK OK
--- IBM - PIC OK - Supports 16-bit per pixel
--- IC - Imagic OK - Atari Imagic program format; Supports the
Atari three color modes
--- lcd5 OK - RAW format of some iPod games
--- ICO/ICN OK OK Format of Windows file icons; Windows XP icons
are supported.
--- IFF/LBM OK OK Default file format of Amigas. Supports all
color depths
--- Image -> Finder - OK Places an image in a folder where a
Custom File Icon was created, very useful when creating CD- ROMs
--- ImageLab / PrintTechnic OK - Format with 256 grayscale
--- IMG/XIMG OK OK GEM-Draw file format. Supports 1 to 8-bit per
pixel. The specifications of the 24-bit per pixel variation were never
officially published.
--- IMQ OK - Satellite image format
--- IPLab OK -
--- ithmb OK - iPod Photo format
--- ISS OK -
--- j6i OK - Variation of the JPEG format
--- JBI OK - Variation of the TIFF format
--- JEDMICS C4 OK - Used by NASA
--- JIF OK OK New format based on the TIFF format
--- JNG OK -
--- JPEG/JFIF OK OK Supports 24-bit per pixel or 256 grayscale.
Compression results in a loss of image quality. Supports EXIF document
information, for example, from digital cameras. Medical JPEGs with 12/16
bit per channel can only be opened.
--- JPEG2000 (.jp2 and .j2c) OK OK JPEG 2000 creates smaller files
than JPG, but has not established itself. j2c is a variant of JPEG2000
format.
--- JPF OK OK Like gif but with zlib compression
--- jpx OK - JPEG variant
--- KDC OK(*) OK Kodak digital camera format. (*) You can only
open these types of files on modern Macs with Power PC processors or
later. You can also open these files with the X and UB version from
GraphicConverter 6.
--- Keynote PICT OK - Variant of the PICT format created by
Keynote.
--- KISS CEL OK OK
--- Koala OK - C64 Format
--- Kodak DCS OK -
--- KONTRON OK - Kontron microscope format Contains graphics with
256 grayscale
--- LDF OK OK LuraDokument Format. In the UB version of
GraphicConverter, LDF documents cannot be imported and exported as no
SDKs are available. If necessary, use the X version of GraphicConverter
under Rosetta.
--- Liberty IM OK -
--- LIFF OK -
--- LOGO OK OK Nokia telephone logos
--- Lotus-PIC OK - Lotus vector format
--- LuraDocument OK - Document management format
--- LWF (LuraWave) OK OK LuraWave Wavelet compression technology When
saving, the graphics size is limited to 800x600 pixels. You can only
save larger graphics after you have paid the licensing fee. In the UB
version of GraphicConverter, LWF images cannot be imported and exported
as no SDKs are available. If necessary, use the X version of
GraphicConverter under Rosetta.
--- MacDraw OK -
--- MacPaint OK OK Black and white format with 576 x 720 pixels
--- MAG OK - MAKIchan graphic format
--- MAYA-IFF OK - Variation of the IFF format
--- MBM (Psion 5) OK OK Graphics of the PSION 5 series
--- MDC OK -
--- Meteosat 5 OK - Meteosat satellite format
--- MHT archive OK -
--- MonkeyCard OK OK Telephone logo format
--- MonkeyLogo OK OK Telephone logo format
--- Moov - OK QuickTime animation
--- MOS OK - RAW format
--- MP2 OK - MP2 files can only be displayed if you purchase the
MP2 add-on for QuickTime from www.apple.com.
--- MPO OK -
--- MRC OK -
--- mrSID OK - Mac OS X only with a plug-in you can download from
http://www.lemkesoft.com/en/ plugins.htm
--- MSP OK - 1-bit graphics from Microsoft Paint (Windows 2.0)
--- MSX - MSX2 MSX+ - MSX2+ OK -
--- NAA/IPTC OK -
--- NASA Raster Metafile OK - Format with or without several
frames of the NASA missions
--- NEO OK - Format of the Atari NeoChrome program Supports 320 x
200 pixels for16 colors
--- NGG/NCG OK OK Nokia cellphone format
--- NIF OK -
--- NIST PCT OK -
--- Nokia .pict OK OK Export via the .logo format
--- NOL OK OK Nokia cellphone format
--- NV12 OK - Format for single images of a Microsoft video format
--- ODF OK - Format for multipage documents
--- ONCOR OK - Supports 256 grayscale
--- ORF OK -
--- OTA OK OK
--- PAC - STAD OK - Black and white graphics with 640 x 400 pixels
of the Atari STAD program
--- Palette - OK Color table
--- Palm image stream OK - Format of the Palm organizer (.stream)
--- PAM OK - Open Source Format
--- Paperport .max OK - Format of scanners with automatic feed
--- PBM - PGM PPM OK OK Standard UNIX file format for easy exchange
of graphics. The file can be coded as binary or ASCII. The file can be
coded as binary or ASCII.
--- PCD OK - Kodak PhotoCD format
--- PCX OK OK PC Paintbrush file format. Supports 1, 4 and 8-bit
per pixel. The new version also supports 24-bit per pixel.
--- PDB FireViewer OK OK Palm Pilot format. In the UB version of
GraphicConverter, PDB FireViewer images with type 2 compression cannot
be imported and exported as no SDKs are available. If necessary, use the
X version of GraphicConverter under Rosetta.
--- PDF OK OK Import and Export only in Carbon Version (Mac OS X)
--- PDS3 OK - *.IMQ files with MOC compression
--- PEF OK - RAW format of Pentax cameras
--- PFM OK - Open Source Format
--- PGC/PGF OK -
--- PGPF OK OK Sony Clie Format
--- Photostudio OK - Format used under Mac OS 9
--- Photo PDB OK OK (JPEG)
--- PIC OK - B/W Atari file format (640x400 pixels)
--- PIC OK - PC Paint file format
--- PIC OK OK Psion format Supports 1 or 2-bit per pixel
--- PIC (32K) OK - Black and white Atari format with 640 x 400
pixels
--- PICS OK OK Animation
--- PICT OK OK Standard Mac OS graphic format. Contains vector
and/or bitmap graphics. The PICT images created by Keynote are also
recognized.
--- PICT resource OK OK PICT graphic that was read into or out of a
resource fork
--- PIX OK - Modified BMP format used by some iPod games
--- PM OK - UNIX xv format
--- PNG OK OK New file format for the Internet. Supports 1, 2, 4,
8 and 24-bit per pixel and a gamma value. The Apple Touch Icon for
bookmarks on the iPhone and iPod Touch is saved in PNG format.
--- PORST OK - Photo on disk format Variation of the JPEG format
--- PowerPoint OK - Only the pictures contained are shown in a
multiple-page document.
--- Ppat OK OK
--- PSD OK OK Photoshop format for Version 3.0 or higher. Supports
1, 8, 16 and 24-bit per pixel.
--- PSF OK - Can contain several JPGs
--- PSP OK - PaintShop Pro format
--- PTG OK - ArtRage
--- PWP OK - Format of a developing service
--- Pxx - Degas OK - Atari Degas program format. 320 x 200
pixels, 16 colors (*.PI1, *.PC1) 640 x 200 pixels, 4 colors (*.PI2,
*.PC2) 640 x 400 pixels, 2 colors (*.PI3, *.PC3) - 320 x 200 pixels, 16
colors (*.PI1, *.PC1) 640 x 200 pixels, 4 colors (*.PI2, *.PC2) 640 x
400 pixels, 2 colors (*.PI3, *.PC3)
--- QDV OK - Giffer format Supports 1, 4 and 8-bit per pixel
--- QNT OK -
--- QTIF OK(*) OK QuickTime graphic format (*) QuickTime 3 or
higher is required for opening these files.
--- QTL OK OK
--- RAF OK - Can contain JPEG
--- RAW OK OK You can use the Raw filter to import "raw data" data
types. You must specify the width, height and color depth when importing
or saving. There are many types of RAW files not documented by the
manufacturers of digital cameras. That is why GraphicConverter cannot
open some RAW files. Sony dsc f828 and bayer rggb are supported among
others.
--- RGB OK -
--- RIFF OK - Format of the Painter program Contains color and
black and white graphics
--- RLA OK -
--- RLE OK - "Utah Raster toolkits" graphics
--- RSB OK OK
--- RTF - OK Rich Text Format
--- RW2 OK -
--- SCR OK - Sinclair screenshots. Please note that the file
extension SCR is also used by the Capture Tool in Word for DOS.
--- SCR OK OK Graphics created by Capture Tools from Word for DOS
This format is identical to the PCX format. Please note that the file
extension SCR is also used by Sinclair screenshots.
--- Scrap OK -
--- ScreenShot Hack PDB OK - Palm OS ScreenShots; support for
Handera and Sony CLIE (V1.5)
--- SCX OK - ColoRIX format Supports 8-bit per pixel
--- SFF OK - Fax format from Fritz!
--- SFW OK - Seattle Filmworks photo on disk format Variation of
the JPEG format
--- SGI OK - Silicon Graphics Image format Supports 256 grayscale
or 24-bit
--- SHP OK - Lighting Press or Printmaster graphic archive format
Supports 1-bit per pixel
--- SHS OK -
--- SIGMA SD10 raw OK - RAW-Format of the camera Sigma SD 10
--- Sinclair QL OK - Sinclair QL format
--- SIXEL OK - VAX world terminal format
--- SKETCH OK - Variation of the MBM format
--- smv OK - Used by microscopes
--- SNX OK - Variation of the JPEG format
--- Softimage OK OK Softimage format Supports 32-bit per image Used
by video programs
--- SPC OK - Spectrum graphic format Supports 320 x 200 pixels
for 512 colors
--- SR2 OK - Sony Raw
--- ST - X - SBIG OK - Supports 256 grayscale
--- Startup Screen OK OK Graphics in this file format are displayed
when your Mac is started if they are in the system folder.
--- STV OK - Medizinisches Format
--- SUN OK - SUN Raster file format Supports 8 or 24-bit per
pixel
--- Super-Hi-Res 3200 OK - Apple Iigs graphics with 32000 colors
--- SVG OK OK Import with Mac OS X only with ImageMagick as helper
http://www.imagemagick.org/
--- SWF OK OK Using QuickTime (Macromedia Flash)
--- System 7 clip - OK Clipboard format when copying or moving data
on System 7 or higher
--- TBCPlus OK -
--- TCL OK - TCL format
--- TealPaint PDB OK OK TealPaint (Palm OS). Save for PDB. Select
the format using the Options button.
--- TEX OK - Texture
--- TGA OK OK Truevision Targa format
--- TIFF OK OK Complex format for all color depths The
GraphicConverter can import and export the following types of
compression: uncompressed, packpits, lzw, ccitt3, ccitt4, fax3, fax4. 32
bit IEEE TIFFs are supported.
--- TIM PSX OK -
--- TN OK - ATARI TINY format
--- TRS-80 OK OK TRS-80 format
--- VBM OK -
--- VFF OK - Uses 4-bit per pixel
--- VGS-8 OK - Used by microscopes
--- VITRONIC OK - Vitronic Format Supports 256 grayscale
--- VOXEL OK - Format with 512 x 512 pixels for 256 grayscale
--- VPB OK OK Quantel Videosystems format
--- VPM OK -
--- WBIN MacWavelet 2d OK OK MacWavelet 2d format
--- WBMP OK OK Format of the new WAP technology
--- wbz OK - Five variants are recognized
--- wdb OK(*) HD photo format from Microsoft. (*) Can only be
imported with the UB version of GraphicConverter.
--- Webp OK OK Format for the Internet. Newer versions can contain
metadata.
--- WinFax fxm OK -
--- Winmail.dat OK - All readable images it contains will be
opened in a multiple-page document.
--- WMF OK OK Windows Meta File Contains vector and bitmap
graphics Contains vector and bitmap graphics
--- WPG OK - Word Perfect graphic format Can contain vector and
bitmap graphics
--- X-Face OK OK Supports 48 x 48 pixels for1-bit Used for small
photos in newsgroups
--- X11 OK - Bitmap format
--- X3F OK - Format of the Sigma digital camera
--- XCF OK - Non documented Gimp format. Can be opened with
GraphicConverter if ImageMagick (Fink package) is installed.
--- XBM OK OK Black and white format coded in C
--- XPM OK OK ASCII Bitmap
--- XWD OK OK Dump from X-Windows
--- YUV OK - If the width and height cannot be determined
automatically, a dialog opens where you enter the values.
--- Z04, Z08, Z16, Z24, Z32 OK - z3d format
--
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Avatar
benoit
pehache wrote:
Le 11/04/2018 à 22:06, efji a écrit :
Le 11/04/2018 à 21:37, GhostRaider a écrit :
Le 11/04/2018 à 21:26, Benoit a écrit :
Je dirais plutôt que le RAW , n'étant pas encore une image, la vision
qu'on en a est trompeuse, les couleurs sont fausses.

Ce sont celles qui ont été captées. Celles qu'i y avait l'origine.

Tu es sûr ? Elles sont très ternes. Est-ce notre cerveau qui les
ravive à ce point ?

Je pense que le monsieur n'a pas bien compris ce qu'était un fichier
raw, et il croit que quand il l'ouvre avec un logiciel lambda il a
l'image brute qui est tapie dans le raw,

Ben, c'est presque ça.
et se dit donc c'est la meilleure.

Il n'a pas dit ça.
En général il ne faut pas essayer de contrarier ce genre
d'individu. Donc dis-lui : "oui, c'est très bien, un peu sombre et un
peu vert, mais c'est normal, tu débutes. C'est un bon début quand même.
Continue. Le raw c'est vraiment ce qu'il te faut pour devenir un bon
photographe."


-1
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Avatar
René
Le dimanche 15 avril 2018 06:53:16 UTC-4, Benoit a écrit :
pehache wrote:
Le 12/04/2018 à 15:50, Stephane Legras-Decussy a écrit :
> Le 12/04/2018 14:42, Benoit a écrit :
>
>> Ce que j'entends par là c'est qu'il n'y a aucune correction de
>> « température » j'ai tant de bleu, tant de vert, tant de rouge et bien
>> j'affiche ce que j'ai.
>
>
> le strict minimum faisable c'est recopier dans un tiff16 les valeurs
> electriques des photosites.
>
> ça ne donne rien de regardable car chaque pixel aura 2 composant es sur
> les 3, non renseignée.
>
> la méthode la plus basique pour renseigner les composantes manqu antes,
> c'est pour chaque pixel, recopier la valeur de son 8-voisinage.
>
> exemple :
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9matri%C3%A7age#/media/File:Algor ith
> me_de_d%C3%A9matricage.svg
>
>
> il manque le coin haut gauche de l'image rouge... on va stupidement
> recopier la valeur du voisin de droite.
>
> finalement, tu obtiens un tiff16 sans trou et sans aucun traitement.
C'est peut-être ce que fait GC.

Déjà, je jette un œil dans la doc (300 pages) et j'ai la l iste des
formats qu'il sait lire et écrire dans ma version 8, la 10 est
aujourd'hui dispo ce qui doit être une bonne explication du rés ultat
obtenu. En tout cas voilà ce que sais lire et écrire un logicie l dédié à
l'origine (1992) dans la conversion de format d'image :
Format Import Export Comment
--- .D OK - 320x200 pixel for 1-bit
--- 8BIM OK - Old Photoshop 2.0 format Supports 1, 8 and 24-bit
per pixel
--- AAI OK -
--- Acorn Sprite OK - Contains sprites from Acorn computers
--- AFP OK - Variation of the TIFF format for 1-bit graphics
--- ALIAS OK - Alias Pix FormatSupports 256 grayscale or 24-bit
--- AMBER ARR OK - Used by microscopes Supports 256 grayscale
--- AMC OK -
--- Analyze OK - Format from medical technology that is made up
of two files: .hdr contains the header and .img contains the image data.
--- ANI OK - NeoChrome program animations
--- animated windows cursor (ANI) OK -
--- ANPA OK - Format with IPTC information
--- Apple File Icon - OK These files only contain the file icon.
By pressing Command-I in the operating system, you can click and copy it
in the dialog that opens before setting it for another file with
Command-V.
--- Apple Preferred OK - Apple Iigs graphic format
--- ART OK - First Publisher program format Supports 1-bit per
pixel
--- ARW OK -
--- ASCII OK OK Allows you to import and export graphics that
contain only ASCII characters
--- b3d OK - 3D format
--- Bio OK - Bio-Formats of medical devices and microscopes
(Glencoe SDK)
--- BioRad OK - BioRad file format, supports 256 grayscale
--- BLD OK OK Mega Paint format
--- BLP OK - Format of games like World of Warcraft ©. If you
need to mirror vertically after opening you can select Mirror vertically
in Preferences / Open / Image Formats / BLP.
--- BMP OK OK Standard Windows format, supports1, 4, 8, 15 and
24-bit per pixel
--- BSB OK - Format for maps
--- BSP OK -
--- BUF OK - Supports 32-bit
--- BUM OK OK Variation of the BMP or PICT format
--- Byte-Array Header File (.H) - OK Image is converted to C
source code, e.g. for games console developers
--- CALS OK - CCITT 4 compressed black and white graphics
--- CAM OK - Casio QV-10/100 format, a variation of the JPEG
format
--- CEL OK OK CEL format
--- CGM OK - Internationally standardized file format for
exchanging vector and bitmap graphics
--- Chyron OK OK The export option only covers the basic elements.
--- cicn - OK Icons
--- CINEON OK -
--- CISCOIpPhoneI mages OK OK
--- CLP OK - Windows clipboard format
--- cpbitmap OK - Format from iOS devices for the start screen and
background picture
--- cri OK -
--- CRW OK - Canon cameras raw format
--- csource OK OK Graphics as C source code
--- CT OK - Scitex color graphics
--- CUR OK OK Cursor format
--- CVG OK - Calamus vector format
--- CWK OK - Apple Works document format. All images contained
are imported.
--- DCS OK - .C, .M, .Y, .K documents are combined in a complete
CMYK image
--- DCX OK - Contains several PCX files
--- DDS OK OK Format of some graphic cards
--- DeltaVision OK -
--- DESR VFF OK -
--- DICOM OK - Graphic format used in medical technology
--- Direct icns OK OK
--- Discus YUV OK OK Format from television production
--- DJ1000 OK - Camera format
--- DL OK - Animation format with 320x200 pixels for 8-bit Normally
contains x-rated elements
--- dm2 / dm3 OK - Gatan format from digital microscopes
--- DNG OK - Digital Negative
--- Doodle OK -
--- DPX OK -
--- Dr. Halo OK - Dr. Halo program format with 256 colors
--- DrawIt PDB OK - DrawIt (Palm OS)
--- Duotone PSD OK - Import as grayscale
--- ECW OK OK Only in Carbon Version of GraphicConverter
--- Electronic Image OK OK Electric Image Format, can contain
animations
--- EPSF OK(*) OK Encapsulated Postscript Format. (*)
GraphicConverter requires a plug-in to open all EPSF files other than
Photoshop EPS files.
--- ESM OK - ESM format
--- Facesaver OK -
--- Favicon ICO OK OK Format for pictures with 16x16 pixels that
are displayed in the address bar in front of the URL. Windows ICONS is
used as the file format. Adapt and insert the following HTML code in
your Web site and copy the favicon.ico image to your server.
--- FAX OK - CCITT 3 coded fax file
--- FaxSTF OK - FaxSTF program format
--- fep OK -
--- fig OK - With installed xfig fink package on X
--- First Publisher art OK -
--- FITS OK OK Flexible Image Transport System Format
--- FLH/FLI/FLC OK - Animation from the Autodesk Animator
programFLI supports 8-bit for 320 x 200 pixels FLC supports 8-bit for
640 x 480 pixels FLH supports High Color
--- FPX OK(*) OK FlashPix file format. (*) QuickTime 4 or higher
is required for opening these files.
--- Freehand 10 preview OK - The browser can display a preview of
a Freehand file. This preview can be opened as a picture, but not as a
Freehand file.
--- FUJI OK -
--- GATAN OK - Microscope format Supports 256 grayscale
--- GEM OK - Vector graphics (GEM metafile) created by the
GEMDraw program
--- GFX OK - Xgrabber program format
--- GIF OK OK Supports 1 to 8-bit per pixel, This format was
introduced by CompuServe Inc
--- GRP OK - Uses 1 or 4-bit per pixel
--- HAM OK - Interchange File Format (IFF)
--- HCP OK - Windows screenshot format
--- HD Photo (wdp) OK - GraphicConverter can only open this
Microsoft format in the UB version.
--- HP-GL/2 OK OK This vector graphic format is usually used by
plotters
--- HGT OK -
--- HMR OK - Variation of the TIFF format
--- HTC splashscreens OK OK Format of HTC Smartphones (*.rgb565)
--- IBL OK OK
--- IBM - PIC OK - Supports 16-bit per pixel
--- IC - Imagic OK - Atari Imagic program format; Supports the
Atari three color modes
--- lcd5 OK - RAW format of some iPod games
--- ICO/ICN OK OK Format of Windows file icons; Windows XP icons
are supported.
--- IFF/LBM OK OK Default file format of Amigas. Supports all
color depths
--- Image -> Finder - OK Places an image in a folder where a
Custom File Icon was created, very useful when creating CD- ROMs
--- ImageLab / PrintTechnic OK - Format with 256 grayscale
--- IMG/XIMG OK OK GEM-Draw file format. Supports 1 to 8-bit per
pixel. The specifications of the 24-bit per pixel variation were never
officially published.
--- IMQ OK - Satellite image format
--- IPLab OK -
--- ithmb OK - iPod Photo format
--- ISS OK -
--- j6i OK - Variation of the JPEG format
--- JBI OK - Variation of the TIFF format
--- JEDMICS C4 OK - Used by NASA
--- JIF OK OK New format based on the TIFF format
--- JNG OK -
--- JPEG/JFIF OK OK Supports 24-bit per pixel or 256 grayscale.
Compression results in a loss of image quality. Supports EXIF document
information, for example, from digital cameras. Medical JPEGs with 12/16
bit per channel can only be opened.
--- JPEG2000 (.jp2 and .j2c) OK OK JPEG 2000 creates smaller files
than JPG, but has not established itself. j2c is a variant of JPEG2000
format.
--- JPF OK OK Like gif but with zlib compression
--- jpx OK - JPEG variant
--- KDC OK(*) OK Kodak digital camera format. (*) You can only
open these types of files on modern Macs with Power PC processors or
later. You can also open these files with the X and UB version from
GraphicConverter 6.
--- Keynote PICT OK - Variant of the PICT format created by
Keynote.
--- KISS CEL OK OK
--- Koala OK - C64 Format
--- Kodak DCS OK -
--- KONTRON OK - Kontron microscope format Contains graphics with
256 grayscale
--- LDF OK OK LuraDokument Format. In the UB version of
GraphicConverter, LDF documents cannot be imported and exported as no
SDKs are available. If necessary, use the X version of GraphicConverter
under Rosetta.
--- Liberty IM OK -
--- LIFF OK -
--- LOGO OK OK Nokia telephone logos
--- Lotus-PIC OK - Lotus vector format
--- LuraDocument OK - Document management format
--- LWF (LuraWave) OK OK LuraWave Wavelet compression technology When
saving, the graphics size is limited to 800x600 pixels. You can only
save larger graphics after you have paid the licensing fee. In the UB
version of GraphicConverter, LWF images cannot be imported and exported
as no SDKs are available. If necessary, use the X version of
GraphicConverter under Rosetta.
--- MacDraw OK -
--- MacPaint OK OK Black and white format with 576 x 720 pixels
--- MAG OK - MAKIchan graphic format
--- MAYA-IFF OK - Variation of the IFF format
--- MBM (Psion 5) OK OK Graphics of the PSION 5 series
--- MDC OK -
--- Meteosat 5 OK - Meteosat satellite format
--- MHT archive OK -
--- MonkeyCard OK OK Telephone logo format
--- MonkeyLogo OK OK Telephone logo format
--- Moov - OK QuickTime animation
--- MOS OK - RAW format
--- MP2 OK - MP2 files can only be displayed if you purchase the
MP2 add-on for QuickTime from www.apple.com.
--- MPO OK -
--- MRC OK -
--- mrSID OK - Mac OS X only with a plug-in you can download from
http://www.lemkesoft.com/en/ plugins.htm
--- MSP OK - 1-bit graphics from Microsoft Paint (Windows 2.0)
--- MSX - MSX2 MSX+ - MSX2+ OK -
--- NAA/IPTC OK -
--- NASA Raster Metafile OK - Format with or without several
frames of the NASA missions
--- NEO OK - Format of the Atari NeoChrome program Supports 320 x
200 pixels for16 colors
--- NGG/NCG OK OK Nokia cellphone format
--- NIF OK -
--- NIST PCT OK -
--- Nokia .pict OK OK Export via the .logo format
--- NOL OK OK Nokia cellphone format
--- NV12 OK - Format for single images of a Microsoft video format
--- ODF OK - Format for multipage documents
--- ONCOR OK - Supports 256 grayscale
--- ORF OK -
--- OTA OK OK
--- PAC - STAD OK - Black and white graphics with 640 x 400 pixels
of the Atari STAD program
--- Palette - OK Color table
--- Palm image stream OK - Format of the Palm organizer (.stream)
--- PAM OK - Open Source Format
--- Paperport .max OK - Format of scanners with automatic feed
--- PBM - PGM PPM OK OK Standard UNIX file format for easy exchange
of graphics. The file can be coded as binary or ASCII. The file can be
coded as binary or ASCII.
--- PCD OK - Kodak PhotoCD format
--- PCX OK OK PC Paintbrush file format. Supports 1, 4 and 8-bit
per pixel. The new version also supports 24-bit per pixel.
--- PDB FireViewer OK OK Palm Pilot format. In the UB version of
GraphicConverter, PDB FireViewer images with type 2 compression cannot
be imported and exported as no SDKs are available. If necessary, use the
X version of GraphicConverter under Rosetta.
--- PDF OK OK Import and Export only in Carbon Version (Mac OS X)
--- PDS3 OK - *.IMQ files with MOC compression
--- PEF OK - RAW format of Pentax cameras
--- PFM OK - Open Source Format
--- PGC/PGF OK -
--- PGPF OK OK Sony Clie Format
--- Photostudio OK - Format used under Mac OS 9
--- Photo PDB OK OK (JPEG)
--- PIC OK - B/W Atari file format (640x400 pixels)
--- PIC OK - PC Paint file format
--- PIC OK OK Psion format Supports 1 or 2-bit per pixel
--- PIC (32K) OK - Black and white Atari format with 640 x 400
pixels
--- PICS OK OK Animation
--- PICT OK OK Standard Mac OS graphic format. Contains vector
and/or bitmap graphics. The PICT images created by Keynote are also
recognized.
--- PICT resource OK OK PICT graphic that was read into or out of a
resource fork
--- PIX OK - Modified BMP format used by some iPod games
--- PM OK - UNIX xv format
--- PNG OK OK New file format for the Internet. Supports 1, 2, 4,
8 and 24-bit per pixel and a gamma value. The Apple Touch Icon for
bookmarks on the iPhone and iPod Touch is saved in PNG format.
--- PORST OK - Photo on disk format Variation of the JPEG format
--- PowerPoint OK - Only the pictures contained are shown in a
multiple-page document.
--- Ppat OK OK
--- PSD OK OK Photoshop format for Version 3.0 or higher. Supports
1, 8, 16 and 24-bit per pixel.
--- PSF OK - Can contain several JPGs
--- PSP OK - PaintShop Pro format
--- PTG OK - ArtRage
--- PWP OK - Format of a developing service
--- Pxx - Degas OK - Atari Degas program format. 320 x 200
pixels, 16 colors (*.PI1, *.PC1) 640 x 200 pixels, 4 colors (*.PI2,
*.PC2) 640 x 400 pixels, 2 colors (*.PI3, *.PC3) - 320 x 200 pixels, 16
colors (*.PI1, *.PC1) 640 x 200 pixels, 4 colors (*.PI2, *.PC2) 640 x
400 pixels, 2 colors (*.PI3, *.PC3)
--- QDV OK - Giffer format Supports 1, 4 and 8-bit per pixel
--- QNT OK -
--- QTIF OK(*) OK QuickTime graphic format (*) QuickTime 3 or
higher is required for opening these files.
--- QTL OK OK
--- RAF OK - Can contain JPEG
--- RAW OK OK You can use the Raw filter to import "raw data" data
types. You must specify the width, height and color depth when importing
or saving. There are many types of RAW files not documented by the
manufacturers of digital cameras. That is why GraphicConverter cannot
open some RAW files. Sony dsc f828 and bayer rggb are supported among
others.
--- RGB OK -
--- RIFF OK - Format of the Painter program Contains color and
black and white graphics
--- RLA OK -
--- RLE OK - "Utah Raster toolkits" graphics
--- RSB OK OK
--- RTF - OK Rich Text Format
--- RW2 OK -
--- SCR OK - Sinclair screenshots. Please note that the file
extension SCR is also used by the Capture Tool in Word for DOS.
--- SCR OK OK Graphics created by Capture Tools from Word for DOS
This format is identical to the PCX format. Please note that the file
extension SCR is also used by Sinclair screenshots.
--- Scrap OK -
--- ScreenShot Hack PDB OK - Palm OS ScreenShots; support for
Handera and Sony CLIE (V1.5)
--- SCX OK - ColoRIX format Supports 8-bit per pixel
--- SFF OK - Fax format from Fritz!
--- SFW OK - Seattle Filmworks photo on disk format Variation of
the JPEG format
--- SGI OK - Silicon Graphics Image format Supports 256 grayscale
or 24-bit
--- SHP OK - Lighting Press or Printmaster graphic archive format
Supports 1-bit per pixel
--- SHS OK -
--- SIGMA SD10 raw OK - RAW-Format of the camera Sigma SD 10
--- Sinclair QL OK - Sinclair QL format
--- SIXEL OK - VAX world terminal format
--- SKETCH OK - Variation of the MBM format
--- smv OK - Used by microscopes
--- SNX OK - Variation of the JPEG format
--- Softimage OK OK Softimage format Supports 32-bit per image Used
by video programs
--- SPC OK - Spectrum graphic format Supports 320 x 200 pixels
for 512 colors
--- SR2 OK - Sony Raw
--- ST - X - SBIG OK - Supports 256 grayscale
--- Startup Screen OK OK Graphics in this file format are displayed
when your Mac is started if they are in the system folder.
--- STV OK - Medizinisches Format
--- SUN OK - SUN Raster file format Supports 8 or 24-bit per
pixel
--- Super-Hi-Res 3200 OK - Apple Iigs graphics with 32000 colors
--- SVG OK OK Import with Mac OS X only with ImageMagick as helper
http://www.imagemagick.org/
--- SWF OK OK Using QuickTime (Macromedia Flash)
--- System 7 clip - OK Clipboard format when copying or moving data
on System 7 or higher
--- TBCPlus OK -
--- TCL OK - TCL format
--- TealPaint PDB OK OK TealPaint (Palm OS). Save for PDB. Select
the format using the Options button.
--- TEX OK - Texture
--- TGA OK OK Truevision Targa format
--- TIFF OK OK Complex format for all color depths The
GraphicConverter can import and export the following types of
compression: uncompressed, packpits, lzw, ccitt3, ccitt4, fax3, fax4. 32
bit IEEE TIFFs are supported.
--- TIM PSX OK -
--- TN OK - ATARI TINY format
--- TRS-80 OK OK TRS-80 format
--- VBM OK -
--- VFF OK - Uses 4-bit per pixel
--- VGS-8 OK - Used by microscopes
--- VITRONIC OK - Vitronic Format Supports 256 grayscale
--- VOXEL OK - Format with 512 x 512 pixels for 256 grayscale
--- VPB OK OK Quantel Videosystems format
--- VPM OK -
--- WBIN MacWavelet 2d OK OK MacWavelet 2d format
--- WBMP OK OK Format of the new WAP technology
--- wbz OK - Five variants are recognized
--- wdb OK(*) HD photo format from Microsoft. (*) Can only be
imported with the UB version of GraphicConverter.
--- Webp OK OK Format for the Internet. Newer versions can contain
metadata.
--- WinFax fxm OK -
--- Winmail.dat OK - All readable images it contains will be
opened in a multiple-page document.
--- WMF OK OK Windows Meta File Contains vector and bitmap
graphics Contains vector and bitmap graphics
--- WPG OK - Word Perfect graphic format Can contain vector and
bitmap graphics
--- X-Face OK OK Supports 48 x 48 pixels for1-bit Used for small
photos in newsgroups
--- X11 OK - Bitmap format
--- X3F OK - Format of the Sigma digital camera
--- XCF OK - Non documented Gimp format. Can be opened with
GraphicConverter if ImageMagick (Fink package) is installed.
--- XBM OK OK Black and white format coded in C
--- XPM OK OK ASCII Bitmap
--- XWD OK OK Dump from X-Windows
--- YUV OK - If the width and height cannot be determined
automatically, a dialog opens where you enter the values.
--- Z04, Z08, Z16, Z24, Z32 OK - z3d format
--
Pense à l'étiquette qu'une fois les vendanges faites.

Oh que ca fait vieux et dépassé! Cela t'es vraiment utile? Combie n de format de fichiers connais-tu dans ce lot? C'est n'est bon que pour le s archivistes.
Tu cours après les difficultés. Oui à l'origine il fallait d es convertisseur d'images, mais aujourd'hui il est préférable d'a voir LE bon logiciel, celui qui convient à l'image captée par son APN . Comme il t'a été conseillé utilise donc le démat riceur de la marque.
René